-- Posted by RayOrama at 10:08 am on July 4, 2009 I've never or felt seen God. I've never seen real evidence that he exists. But there's one reason why I can be an atheist. Perfection. Nothing comes from nothing. The gel pen came from the roller ball and that from the ball point and that came from the fountain pen which came from the quill. Everything in humanity's mind has come from something we;ve seen before. Where does the idea of perfection come from though? We've never seen anything perfect. Everything biological dies and everything mechanical or electronic stops working. Why do we think perfection can be achieved then? The fact that this idea is in my head stops me from being an atheist. -- Posted by DaisyMontana at 10:09 am on July 4, 2009 Look, since your childhood you might asked God to give you something, but since you don't have the thing you asked for, your trust in God is zero. -- Posted by S0LITUDE at 10:09 am on July 4, 2009 you still fail to hold a belief in a higher power and therefore you're still an atheist, although probably agnostic -- Posted by Leica at 10:09 am on July 4, 2009 Of course nothing comes from nothing. Doesn't mean there has to be a creator. And what does the lack of perfection have to do with atheism? -- Posted by RayOrama at 10:12 am on July 4, 2009 Quote: from S0LITUDE at 1:09 pm on July 4, 2009 you still fail to hold a belief in a higher power and therefore you're still an atheist, although probably agnostic Atheism means not believing in a higher power. My point is that I can't honestly say there is no higher power. I'm not an agnostic either because I don't believe anybody can present evidence that God exists. Quote: from Aum Shinrikyo at 1:09 pm on July 4, 2009 Of course nothing comes from nothing. Doesn't mean there has to be a creator. And what does the lack of perfection have to do with atheism? All stories of the creation of man from all religions aroound the world believe humanity was created to perfection. My point is that if we've never seen anything or anybody that's perfect why do we believe we create anything that is perfect or that we ourselves can reach perfection? -- Posted by Leica at 10:13 am on July 4, 2009 Quote: from RayOrama at 6:12 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from S0LITUDE at 1:09 pm on July 4, 2009 you still fail to hold a belief in a higher power and therefore you're still an atheist, although probably agnostic Atheism means not believing in a higher power. My point is that I can't honestly say there is no higher power. I'm not an agnostic either because I don't believe anybody can present evidence that God exists. You ARE agnostic. It just means you are undecided on what you believe. -- Posted by Violently Happy at 10:14 am on July 4, 2009 I'm not sure that makes sense. -- Posted by RayOrama at 10:17 am on July 4, 2009 Quote: from Violently Happy at 1:14 pm on July 4, 2009 I'm not sure that makes sense. Nobody can't be sure about anything. -- Posted by WickedWiccan at 10:25 am on July 4, 2009 I believe in higher powers but not in the God of the Bible. I think your problem is that you focus too much on perfection. Maybe perfection was just invented by someone who watched his mother die and he asked: What if nobody had to die? What if we could live forever? People can never be perfect, and I think that's something we should all accept. If people stopped wanting to be perfect or expecting it from others I think a lot of suffering would stop, most people would feel better about themselves, and that would put them in a better state of mind to think about trying to help others. -- Posted by S0LITUDE at 10:33 am on July 4, 2009 Quote: from RayOrama at 7:12 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from S0LITUDE at 1:09 pm on July 4, 2009 you still fail to hold a belief in a higher power and therefore you're still an atheist, although probably agnostic Atheism means not believing in a higher power. My point is that I can't honestly say there is no higher power. I'm not an agnostic either because I don't believe anybody can present evidence that God exists. atheism does not say that there's no higher power. atheism does not believe there is a higher power. There's a difference. no one actually knows whether a higher power exists or not. It's only a belief. your definition of agnosticism is strange. Agnosticism simply says it's impossible to know for sure whether a god exists or not. if you believe it's impossible for a higher power to not exist, and you believe in this higher power then you're a theist. anyway a few things: if nothing comes from nothing where did this creator come from? where does any idea we know of come from? -- Posted by RayOrama at 10:44 am on July 4, 2009 Quote: from S0LITUDE at 1:33 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from RayOrama at 7:12 pm on July 4, 2009 Quote: from S0LITUDE at 1:09 pm on July 4, 2009 you still fail to hold a belief in a higher power and therefore you're still an atheist, although probably agnostic Atheism means not believing in a higher power. My point is that I can't honestly say there is no higher power. I'm not an agnostic either because I don't believe anybody can present evidence that God exists.   atheism does not say that there's no higher power. atheism does not believe there is a higher power. There's a difference. no one actually knows whether a higher power exists or not. It's only a belief. your definition of agnosticism is strange. Agnosticism simply says it's impossible to know for sure whether a god exists or not. if you believe it's impossible for a higher power to not exist, and you believe in this higher power then you're a theist. anyway a few things: if nothing comes from nothing where did this creator come from? where does any idea we know of come from?   I admit that I don't have a hold on all of these things. The only thing I'm absolutely sure about is my doubts. If my doubts were a god I'd worship them. -- Posted by S0LITUDE at 10:48 am on July 4, 2009 Worship your doubts, at least there something more perceivable than a personal god. You can turn your doubts into some sort of impersonal god and make a religion and then make money or somethin' -- Posted by SpM at 11:34 am on July 4, 2009 What is "perfection" as you understand it? What do you visualise when you consider the word? A beautiful face? We have all seen faces and are capable of constructing hypothetical ones which fulfil all our aesthetic standards. A brilliant intellect? It is no great stretch to imagine a being who is wiser and more acute than we are. A formless, omnipotent and omnipresent being stretched over the cosmos? You're probably thinking of an immense shimmering nebula with an aura of power or something similar. The point is that none of the ideas that we associate with perfection are outside the bounds of ordinary human imagination. As for the concept itself, we are quite capable of forming fuzzy pictures of things that aren't quite real or aren't quite within our mental grasp. We can talk of mathematical infinities and theories of everything involving 11 dimensions without really holding these concepts within our minds. When we speak of perfection we are simply talking about hypothetical superlative forms of everyday objects or virtues. There is nothing puzzling in that, and nothing which suggest the existence of a god. -- Posted by Stormblazer at 9:03 pm on July 5, 2009 Quote: from RayOrama at 11:08 am on July 4, 2009 I've never or felt seen God. I've never seen real evidence that he exists. But there's one reason why I can be an atheist. Perfection. Nothing comes from nothing. The gel pen came from the roller ball and that from the ball point and that came from the fountain pen which came from the quill. Everything in humanity's mind has come from something we;ve seen before. Where does the idea of perfection come from though? We've never seen anything perfect. Everything biological dies and everything mechanical or electronic stops working. Why do we think perfection can be achieved then? The fact that this idea is in my head stops me from being an atheist. And the ontological argument for God rears its head again, and is still the second-worst one (the worst being "because I said so" or something along those lines). There are many concepts which have been invented by humanity over time that certainly did not previously exist, including many we take for granted, such as the concepts of sci-fi and fantasy for recent times, or the entirety of higher social structures and civilization if you go back to the beginning. Perfection is simply an ideal, one which isn't actually realized except in mathematics anyways. Ask any two people what perfection is in something that is subjective and you'll likely as not get two different answers. -- Posted by Effigy at 11:20 pm on July 5, 2009 Quote: from RayOrama at 10:08 am on July 4, 2009 I've never or felt seen God. I've never seen real evidence that he exists. But there's one reason why I can be an atheist. Perfection. Nothing comes from nothing. The gel pen came from the roller ball and that from the ball point and that came from the fountain pen which came from the quill. Everything in humanity's mind has come from something we;ve seen before. Where does the idea of perfection come from though? We've never seen anything perfect. Everything biological dies and everything mechanical or electronic stops working. Why do we think perfection can be achieved then? The fact that this idea is in my head stops me from being an atheist. What we have here is a young William Lane Craig, now all you need is a bigger vocab and just a dash more sophistry. -- Posted by LogicandReason at 5:34 am on July 6, 2009 Quote: from RayOrama at 10:12 am on July 4, 2009Quote: from S0LITUDE at 1:09 pm on July 4, 2009 you still fail to hold a belief in a higher power and therefore you're still an atheist, although probably agnosticAtheism means not believing in a higher power. My point is that I can't honestly say there is no higher power. I'm not an agnostic either because I don't believe anybody can present evidence that God exists.   Atheism is not a belief...it is the lack of a belief due to no evidence.  Just becasue people claim supernatural agents does not mean that those who reject such notions have any beliefs. Quote: from Aum Shinrikyo at 1:09 pm on July 4, 2009 Of course nothing comes from nothing. Doesn't mean there has to be a creator. And what does the lack of perfection have to do with atheism?All stories of the creation of man from all religions aroound the world believe humanity was created to perfection. My point is that if we've never seen anything or anybody that's perfect why do we believe we create anything that is perfect or that we ourselves can reach perfection? I see your point here.  What exactly is perfection?  By which standard? -- Posted by Moridin at 6:21 am on July 6, 2009 Quote: from RayOrama at 8:08 pm on July 4, 2009 I've never or felt seen God. I've never seen real evidence that he exists. But there's one reason why I can be an atheist. Perfection. Nothing comes from nothing. The gel pen came from the roller ball and that from the ball point and that came from the fountain pen which came from the quill. Everything in humanity's mind has come from something we;ve seen before. Where does the idea of perfection come from though? We've never seen anything perfect. Everything biological dies and everything mechanical or electronic stops working. Why do we think perfection can be achieved then? The fact that this idea is in my head stops me from being an atheist. If everything must come from something, then this god must also come from something too and so on to infinity. If you object that god has no cause because of arbitrary reason X, then we might as well conclude that the universe needs no cause. After all, we have observed the universe scientifically, yet no one has observed god scientifically. Perfections are like straight lines, they are just abstractions made by an imperfect human mind. Nothing magical here. Furthermore, who thinks that perfection can be achieved? I sure do not. Your reasons for being a theist is very poor. -- Posted by imatwirp at 9:52 pm on July 6, 2009 Atheists in general dont believe that nothing came from nothing. Yes there are some that do. But that does not mean all do. I am an atheist. I cant say we came from nothing, and I cant say that we came from a higher power/nothing. All I can do is live MY life, and quit worrying about where or when I came from. To exist, we do not need the knowledge of creation. It is not a need. Religion merely tells us what we want to know. Thus we feel more whole and complete because we feel we have the answers to all of our questions. But many atheists just live, without the ultimate question because it is a waste of time to search for the impossible answer. -- Posted by Aimforthehead at 11:23 pm on July 6, 2009 Then where did God come from? -- Posted by WickedWiccan at 12:04 am on July 7, 2009 Quote: from imatwirp at 12:52 am on July 7, 2009 Atheists in general dont believe that nothing came from nothing. Yes there are some that do. But that does not mean all do. I am an atheist. I cant say we came from nothing, and I cant say that we came from a higher power/nothing. All I can do is live MY life, and quit worrying about where or when I came from.   To exist, we do not need the knowledge of creation.   It is not a need.   Religion merely tells us what we want to know. Thus we feel more whole and complete because we feel we have the answers to all of our questions.   But many atheists just live, without the ultimate question because it is a waste of time to search for the impossible answer. We didn't come from nothing. We came from goo. I'm not defending the Christian God but the truth is that religions don't tell us what we want hear or it wouldn't be so hard to follow them. No one would rebel against religions if they only told us things we like. And none of the religions answer all the questions. That's what faith is about. You believe in something because you feel it's right to believe in it even if there's no proof that it's true. -- Posted by JohnTheNormalOne at 5:09 am on July 7, 2009 OP: Your argument about the pen is actually invalid - where did the quill come from? Sure, you can mention something before it, but at one moment you come to the end of the line. Something had to be the first, like some sticks or whatever. So, the idea of writing wasn't around all the time. People found out how to write at a specific point in history, therefore they didn't always know how to write. And they had nowhere to see how to write. They probably just randomly figured it out.