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one's own accomplishments

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Your accomplishments are due to a few factors you have no control over:
*Where you were raised
*Who you were raised by
*Your family
*Your genetics

All of these play a major role in YOU.

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Of course.  No one is denying this.

One should give proper credit to this and recognize how much this play's into their personal position today, but that does not mean that they are obligated to feel proud (of one's self) of it if they feel proud of who they are individually today.  What they had no choice in is not something they should feel responsible for.

What the individual has personally chosen is what he or she is to take responsibiltiy in, and therefore, is what he or she is to take pride in.  Taking pride in a collective is about as useful as taken pride into our very being here today through the personal decisions of our ancestors, human and not, of who to mate with, where, and when, that allowed us to come into being as if they were our own decisions.  Clearly, KR, they were not our own decisions and we have no responsibility or control in what happened.  Pride should be taken only in matters one can personally control, and where one proves him or herself.

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If Obama is a good president - he has no reason to be proud of that

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Largely depends on whether the decisions that made his presidency good or bad were his own.

Post edited at 1:31 pm on Nov. 10, 2008 by Bud2400

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Sure. But what does that have to do with race pride?

If you were white and raised in a black family should you be proud to be white or to be black?

If you are black and live in white area, should you be proud to be white or to black?

If you are white and your family is black should you be proud to be white or to be black?

You can be GRATEFUL to all the ppl who helped you make who you are.

But it has nothing to do with being proud. You can be proud of what you DID with what you were given,

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Whites have contributed so much to be - my culture, genetics, language, abilites, and much, much more.

I can only hope to contribute BACK to that.

I am proud of the gift my race has given me.

And to answer your questions - you should be proud of ANYTHING that makes you what you are, be it your race, family, friends, teachers, or country.

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By "other people" do you mean just the people of your own race or is this open to any of humanity?

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If I'm proud of white people for their accomplishments then I simply must be equally proud of the accomplishments of non-white people.

To single out white people is as ridiculous as singling out left-handed people to be proud of. There is no homogenous white culture, there never has been.

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What the individual has personally chosen is what he or she is to take responsibiltiy in, and therefore, is what he or she is to take pride in.

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Pride should be taken only in matters one can personally control, and where one proves him or herself.

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I'll use Obama as an example again.

If Obama was born from different parents, raised in a different environment, and taught by different teachers - would he make the same decisions than if he wasn't?

The thing is - it's highly unlikely that it would happen.

Therefore, every decision he makes isn't his own - but a reflection of other people - his parents, teachers, friends, and mentors to name a few.

Therefore, his decisions aren't really his responsibility or his own decisions - therefore, as some would say, something he CAN'T be proud of.

-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

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But if you look at it scientifically - would they have made that same decision if everything that influenced them (that weren't them in particular) never happened?

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Obviously not, but you still haven't explained to me why they should take pride in something they have no control over, and thus have no responsibility over.

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But that's just it.

I'll use Obama as an example again.

If Obama was born from different parents, raised in a different environment, and taught by different teachers - would he make the same decisions than if he wasn't?

The thing is - it's highly unlikely that it would happen.

Therefore, every decision he makes isn't his own - but a reflection of other people - his parents, teachers, friends, and mentors to name a few.

Therefore, his decisions aren't really his responsibility or his own decisions - therefore, as some would say, something he CAN'T be proud of.

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He certainly had a choice, at least if you believe that free will exists.  Our backgrounds, experiences, etc. all influence our choices, but again, you can't control it, so there's no reason to feel any pride over it as you have no responsibility for creating it.  You can, however, certainly control what you do with yourself, the path you choose in life, etc.  You make the conscious decision to wake up early in the morning to an alarm each day to accomplish what you set out to do, as opposed to just giving into your initial desire and going back to sleep.  You consciously work hard to achieve that when it'd be far easier to just have fun and accomplish something only mediocre.  Obama certainly made many good choices and achieved great accomplishments to get where he's at today, and he should be proud of this because he made the choice to do it, and he did it well.

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Obviously not, but you still haven't explained to me why they should take pride in something they have no control over, and thus have no responsibility over.

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I choose to love my race. I choose to marry and have kids withint my race. I choose to contribute to my race. I hold my race, customs, and culture dear. Why shouldn't I be proud?

If I pass college with straight A's - according to many people - I shouldn't be proud. I passed because others taught me, my parents choice in a mate (genetic input) and many other factors.

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He certainly had a choice, at least if you believe that free will exists.

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Our backgrounds, experiences, etc. all influence our choices, but again, you can't control it, so there's no reason to feel any pride over it as you have no responsibility for creating it.

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You can, however, certainly control what you do with yourself, the path you choose in life, etc.  You make the conscious decision to wake up early in the morning to an alarm each day to accomplish what you set out to do, as opposed to just giving into your initial desire and going back to sleep.

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You consciously work hard to achieve that when it'd be far easier to just have fun and accomplish something only mediocre.

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Obama certainly made many good choices and achieved great accomplishments to get where he's at today, and he should be proud of this because he made the choice to do it, and he did it well.

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The answer is no. Obama did what he did because others influenced him to.

-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

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jakelong haven't you just completly proved that where you are raised is important. Your background etc is what makes you who you are.

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But now I think about it, I am proud to be white. If black people can be proud to be black and proud to have a black president, then I can be proud too.

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When blacks look around them and look at the stats they have to make a SPECIAL effort NOT to be ashamed to be black. So being "proud" in that sense is more about trying to look at what others have done and at least be happy that they have done it. It gives HOPE to ppl who been put down all their lives. But being "proud" is not a good thing for them either in the long run.

In the long run even if Obama is president but a black kid still can't find a job or get a good degree then being "proud" won't help. It will ring hollow.

Whites don't really have all that shame and weight of failutre hanging ovre them. ALL presidents up until now have been 100% white. The stats show they are doing pretty good. The culture shows they have no real reason to be ashamed. So being "proud" is even more silly.

The point to me is there's no reason to be proud of a race.

You can be proud of your country
You can be proud of your ancestry and heritage
You can be proud of your family and your parents
You can be proud even more of your own achievements

But being proud of your race is really hollow whether ppl are black or white or w/e because race is too broad and general. Its like saying "Im proud to be a biped". Its like ok, duh...

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

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I choose to love my race. I choose to marry and have kids withint my race. I choose to contribute to my race. I hold my race, customs, and culture dear. Why shouldn't I be proud?

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Simply because you have no justification to be proud of something you did not control.

Please, KR, justify to me why one should feel proud of something they have no control over.  Should I be proud that the sun shines?  It certainly influences my mood in that it the sunlight influences my brain chemistry in a positive way, making me feel a little happier and thereby potentially influencing some of my decisions.  Would it make sense to be proud of the fact that the sun shines?

Honestly, it makes as much sense to me as saying that you're proud of being white.

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If I pass college with straight A's - according to many people - I shouldn't be proud.

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Who on earth says that?

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I passed because others taught me, my parents choice in a mate (genetic input) and many other factors.

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Yet your effort to accomplish the work and achieve the grade is certainly worth something.  You had help, and you had influences, but you also made good use of that and brought yourself to accomplishing it.

Unless somebody gave you all the answers and whatever you needed, having help to get a good grade does not and should not reduce how proud you are of it.

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It wasn't technically HIS input, but a reflection of everything eles that makes him.

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Exactly.  He should not feel pride in this, but how he personally makes use of this.  He can be glad that he had it, but he should not be proud of it.  You see the difference?

I am proud that the sun shines.  I am glad that the sun shines.

I am proud that I am white.  I am glad that I am white.

It's a good idea not to personalize the attribute, thereby mixing it up with being a part of your identity (as in, being who you are instead of what you are), and thus proud of it as opposed to being glad for it. We often persoalize our race and heritage - something which we are typically proud of - but we usually do not do such with the sunshine, despite it having a great deal of influence on each of us personally.

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I have no control over my genetics - so if I'm a naturally good athlete - I shouldn't be proud of my achievements?

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Nah, you should be proud of how you made use of what you were given.

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What if my parents never cared?
What if I was influenced, at a young age by my "Friends" to not care about school, to not go out of my way to do anything, and to not give a shit?
That could've happened, but it didn't. Not because of me - but because I was taught to do better.

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Indeed.  You were given something, and you made use of it.  Unless you were forced to do it by a threat of some kind (ie. punishment), I don't see why you wouldn't be proud.

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Effort is something you get in many cases.
People read books, get teachers, and get help by psychologists to gain more effort. They did not teach those teachers, those psychologists, or write those books.
Their "Effort" is entirely fueled by other factors - something they aren't a part of.

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What are you on here?

Effort is simply a matter of striving for something despite the obstacles and costs.  Anybody can have effort, but you make it sound as if effort is easy to come by.  Effort / motivation / determination / a clear vision of what one wants is not necessarily that easy, and being able to achieve something that took quite a bit of effort did take something, hence one should feel proud of their efforts.

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If he was brought up "Not caring" - would he be in his position today? Would HE make the same decisions?

The answer is no. Obama did what he did because others influenced him to.

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You keep missing the part where the individual makes their own choices.  No one's denying that Obama and everybody else does not have their influences - what we're all trying to tell you is that he made use of these influences to achieve what he has achieved and become what he is today.  There is nothing collective about that.

Post edited at 7:49 pm on Nov. 10, 2008 by Bud2400

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Simply because you have no justification to be proud of something you did not control.

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I was thinking about it more and the more I think about it the more I realize its really totally stupid.

For example parents can be PROUD of their kids if they raised them good and they made sacrifices and the kids succeed.

And kids can be GRATEFUL to their parenst and their comunity and those who helped them for what they did for them to help them where they are.

That makes sense.

But being proud of what your ancestors did is silly in a way because you didn't do anything to make your ancestor who he was.

Its more that you can be grateful that your ancestor did something cool for example and that allowed your family or your family name to have a good reputation maybe (not that it really matters that much usually).

And still being proud of your ancestors is not as bad as being proud of something so broad and vague like race.

-------
"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

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Simply because you have no justification to be proud of something you did not control.

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The same logic would also apply to 'guilt', correct?

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The same logic would also apply to 'guilt', correct?

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That is indeed correct.  Those who try to enforce any kind of collective guilt on you are doing the exact same thing as those who feel collective pride are doing, but in a rather negative way.