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Quote: from kidd rune at 1:34 pm on Oct. 31, 2009

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Einstein also had an amazingly different brain.  
 Brain morphology has been shown to have a genetic link. Want me to give studies in support of this?  

 I don't see any information on Newton's brain though.  

 Nothing suggests these people gave in more effort than 99.9% of the world's population though.

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Your brain changes throughout your life. Einstein's parietal lobes were different because he used them more than an average human does.

Nothing suggest? You have got to be kidding me.

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Brain morphology is influenced by outside factors but also of genetic factors.
See the study "Genetic influences on brain structure"
http://www.imaginggenetics.org/PDFs/Thompson_Nature_Neuro2001_genetics.pdf

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"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

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Quote: from kidd rune at 1:34 pm on Oct. 31, 2009

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Einstein also had an amazingly different brain.
Brain morphology has been shown to have a genetic link. Want me to give studies in support of this?

I don't see any information on Newton's brain though.

Nothing suggests these people gave in more effort than 99.9% of the world's population though.

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Your brain changes throughout your life. Einstein's parietal lobes were different because he used them more than an average human does.  

Nothing suggest? You have got to be kidding me.

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Genetics define hard-coded limits and to some extent the ease with which certain things come to us. Everything after conception influences the extent to which we can exploit those raw capacities.. Take that as you will.

Post edited at 10:40 am on Nov. 1, 2009 by TheOtherHorseman

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"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

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You haven't shown anything to support the claim that everyone can be an Einstein.

Brain morphology is influenced by outside factors but also of genetic factors.
See the study "Genetic influences on brain structure"
http://www.imaginggenetics.org/PDFs/Thompson_Nature_Neuro2001_genetics.pdf

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Quote: from Forgot My Name at 11:41 pm on Oct. 30, 2009

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Quote: from jsia at 11:27 pm on Oct. 30, 2009

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No way. Otherwise we'd all be intrigued like them, and be great.

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People don't imply themselves as much as they did. I know Einstein and Newton were solitary people that use to sit in rooms by themselves for days to figure out problems. Hardy anyone know a days have that kind of discipline and motivation to do such.

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Einstein also had an amazingly different brain.  
Brain morphology has been shown to have a genetic link. Want me to give studies in support of this?  

I don't see any information on Newton's brain though.  

Nothing suggests these people gave in more effort than 99.9% of the world's population though.

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Einstein did spend unnatural amounts of time on his interests. He was so obsessed with his work that he wrote hundreds of books and articles on Physics and other subjects, was tutored, and wrote a scientific paper in his youth. By age 12, he has mastered logic (I forgot the book) and algebra from university-level books. . That takes determination. Especially do it on your own when no-one else your age is doing it."

"A roundup of IQ studies from Cambridge University Press, shows that being a genius means 99 % hard work. "There are international chess masters that have below-average IQs," said author Dr. K. Anders Ericsson, a professor of psychology at Florida State University in Tallahassee."

"One research tracking adult graduates of New York City's Hunter College Elementary School, where an admission criterion was an IQ of at least 130, revealed that most of the graduates bore average lives, and very few scored on the top. "There were no superstars, no Pulitzer Prize or MacArthur Award winners, and only one or two familiar names," said lead researcher Rena Subotnik, a psychologist with the American Psychological Association."

"The Cambridge analysis points the three keys to success: hard work, persistence and a solid upbringing."

"[And all the people who got international fame had invariably worked with a high level mentor."

"Ericsson shows that genius status is achieved when one puts in five times extra work and 10 years of effort more than average people do. "A lot of people think (that) highly talented people can become good at anything rapidly. But what this study says(suggests) is that nobody has been able to rise without having practiced(practised) for 10 years. In [classical] music right now, it takes more than 15-20 years before they start winning in competitions", said Ericsson."
^
Music is a perfect example. There are musical geniuses right now who've only become as such because of tutoring(high level)+parents (musical upbringing)+determination(to get it "perfect").

Post edited at 3:25 pm on Nov. 1, 2009 by Takinam

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Quote: from kidd rune at 11:43 am on Nov. 1, 2009

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You haven't shown anything to support the claim that everyone can be an Einstein.  

 Brain morphology is influenced by outside factors but also of genetic factors.  
 See the study "Genetic influences on brain structure"  
 http://www.imaginggenetics.org/PDFs/Thompson_Nature_Neuro2001_genetics.pdf

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I don't need to support my claim, I already know it's true. We have talked about it in my psychology class. Genetics don't rule everything like you think.

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I never claimed genetics rule over everything, don't spew that bullshit in attempt to discredit, sir.

-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

As for the chess masters, I would appreciate a list. I would also like a statistic showing the average IQ of chess masters.
Also, chess is only based on a few skills. IQ tests many - you can be highly exceptional in those that chess demands but not in other fields, reducing your IQ to lower than average.

Also, about the second quote, so what?
A high IQ doesn't guarantee success. Nobody said it did. We're talking about averages.
Also, you shouldn't have chosen an elementary school - children's IQ scores fluctuate all the time. There are many more children with IQ's of 130 than adults with the same. The older you get (Until you're done maturing around 20) the closer to the mean your IQ becomes.

As for the next three, I agree. Please quote where I claimed or supported the claim that intellectual achievement is solely based on inherited intelligence.
Really it's only part of the big picture.
An example is for a basketball player. Height is about 90% genetic so some people are born 5'3" and other's 7'2" - the taller obviously has a better chance at basketball.

But if the short guy practices daily and the tall guy doesn't, we can all see who will win.
But when you take an incredibly large sample size - such as a country - you can easily see that basketball is dominated by the height endowed.

The same is true for this achievement. You can be born with the genes to help you to success but you have to take advantage of them.

Obviously musical masterpieces are cognitively demanding and that explains the high estimated IQ's of Beethoven or Bach.

What's interesting is that Jews - specifically the Ashkenazi - have high IQs. Their average is sometimes estimated to being 10 or 15 points higher than other Europeans.
But it's not only culture - look at Bobby Fischer, 1/2 Ashkenazi World Chess Champion with an astonishingly high IQ. He was hardly brought up as Jewish and didn't experience the culture or religion - he has been labeled a "Self-hating Jew" and "Holocaust denier" (Other Holocaust "Denying" Jews have been disallowed burial in Jewish cemeteries).

The Ashkenazi have a uniqueness in their gene pool - Wiki has a large list of diseases almost only found among their ethnicity.

-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

Post edited at 7:45 am on Nov. 2, 2009 by TheOtherHorseman

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"My name is Ozymandias, King of Kings:
Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!"

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Although interestingly about the Ashkenazi, that is largely because they've been a particular focus of genetic research due to the homogeneity of their gene pool. The abundance of reported genetic ailments is very much amplified by that group just being of particular interest to geneticists.

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The only reason other animals aren't as cognitvely advanced as humans is because they are genetically different form birth.

Take a chimp and bring him up in any culture and he'll be less intelligent than the average human -- and that's taking the smartest non-human animal we know (Except maybe whales but I have no idea and it'd be virtually impossible to raise them like humans).

This is because we have the genes to make us think more efficiently than any other species.

We already know the Ashkenazi are genetically distinct, so what if they have more mutations that pave the road for high IQ?
I'm not saying it's only genetics but they dominate the Nobel prize laureates list though such a small portion of the world.

-------
"One of the Germans... would frequently snatch a child from the
woman's arms and... tear the child in half... Such incidents...
occurred all the time." - A Year in Treblinka, Yankel Wiernik,
Treblinka's "most authoritative eyewitness"

---

Takinam:  
Nobody, not me nor any scientist I know, has claimed that Einsteins genius was solely based on his genetics and hard work and determination were irrelevant.

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You have implied it, as you usually do, and then you say that I am directly äccusing you of something, which I have and am not doing or done.

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As for the chess masters, I would appreciate a list. I would also like a statistic showing the average IQ of chess masters.

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Will do, capin'. Before I find the list, I will make it known that chess talent is based more purely on chess playing in childhood, and that since it raises IQ, it is perhaps a self-fufiling prophecy that chess masters have higher IQ's. This, however, points towards environmental tampering.

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Also, chess is only based on a few skills.

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Strategy games = Increase in IQ
If this is what IQ increase amount to, then, correspondingly IQ is only based on "a few skills" and less indicative of intelligence than currently thought.

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IQ tests many - you can be highly exceptional in those that chess demands but not in other fields, reducing your IQ to lower than average.

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Nay. If chess can raise IQ, then it would raise one's ability in everything. That which chess demands equals an increase in overall IQ.

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Also, about the second quote, so what?  
A high IQ doesn't guarantee success. Nobody said it did. We're talking about averages.

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I never said it does. And I've considered averages.

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Also, you shouldn't have chosen an elementary school - children's IQ scores fluctuate all the time. There are many more children with IQ's of 130 than adults with the same. The older you get (Until you're done maturing around 20) the closer to the mean your IQ becomes.

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Yes, IQ is more static as we age. Point?

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As for the next three, I agree. Please quote where I claimed or supported the claim that intellectual achievement is solely based on inherited intelligence.

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Implied.

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Really it's only part of the big picture.  
An example is for a basketball player. Height is about 90% genetic so some people are born 5'3" and other's 7'2" - the taller obviously has a better chance at basketball.

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But if the short guy practices daily and the tall guy doesn't, we can all see who will win.  
But when you take an incredibly large sample size - such as a country - you can easily see that basketball is dominated by the height endowed.

Invalid fallacy. People aren't born with high potential and low potential in the way people are born with tallness and shortness--or they aren't proven to anyway. A person with a photographic memory can still be a moron.

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The same is true for this achievement. You can be born with the genes to help you to success but you have to take advantage of them.

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Not necessarily. This would imply heavy basis on genetics (to which, might I add, you have said you do not support and I have said you either imply or do support).

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Obviously musical masterpieces are cognitively demanding and that explains the high estimated IQ's of Beethoven or Bach. [/quote[

Music increases IQ.  

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What's interesting is that Jews - specifically the Ashkenazi - have high IQs. Their average is sometimes estimated to being 10 or 15 points higher than other Europeans.  
But it's not only culture - look at Bobby Fischer, 1/2 Ashkenazi World Chess Champion with an astonishingly high IQ. He was hardly brought up as Jewish and didn't experience the culture or religion - he has been labeled a "Self-hating Jew" and "Holocaust denier" (Other Holocaust "Denying" Jews have been disallowed burial in Jewish cemeteries).

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Fischer is an exception, not the rule.

Post edited at 7:29 pm on Nov. 7, 2009 by Takinam

I know plenty of smart people who are lazy as hell, and plenty of people that work their asses off to pass, but will never be able to actually understand things as simple as electrical co-generation in elevators, or potential energy.