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who IS your God anyway?

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How about even one "proof" that He does not exist? Not a 'logical' argument, but a proof.  

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Why am I obligated to 'prove' your fantasy does not exist?  If I believe that ghosts exist, based on my experiences and the stories of others (your proof of God), can you offer any 'proof' of their non-existence?  No.

Let's consider some of the evidence that we can see:

1.  Ever and constant genocide of innocents in the world...deduction - God does not exist, is not all powerful, or does not care,

2.  Children kidnapped, raped, and murdered...deduction - God does not exist, is not all powerful, or does not care, or

3.  Millions of people die innocently in natural disasters or famine (while those who survive or are prosperous credit God)...deduction - God does not exist, is not all powerful, or does not care.

You never put God to any test and excuse his absence by saying we cannot understand his ways or will.  Open you eyes (and your mind).

You are kind, intelligent, fair-minded and studied.  You also believe in God.  Your good qualities do not validate your beliefs.

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www.thehereticandthepreacher.com

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:38 am on July 22, 2009

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How about even one "proof" that He does not exist? Not a 'logical' argument, but a proof.

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Why am I obligated to 'prove' your fantasy does not exist? If I believe that ghosts exist, based on my experiences and the stories of others (your proof of God), can you offer any 'proof' of their non-existence? No.

Let's consider some of the evidence that we can see:

1. Ever and constant genocide of innocents in the world...deduction - God does not exist, is not all powerful, or does not care,

2. Children kidnapped, raped, and murdered...deduction - God does not exist, is not all powerful, or does not care, or

3. Millions of people die innocently in natural disasters or famine (while those who survive or are prosperous credit God)...deduction - God does not exist, is not all powerful, or does not care.

You never put God to any test and excuse his absence by saying we cannot understand his ways or will. Open you eyes (and your mind).  

You are kind, intelligent, fair-minded and studied. You also believe in God. Your good qualities do not validate your beliefs.

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I have no need to test God and I don't believe He is 'absent'. But I don't believe we can 'read' His mind... and we don't have enough information to know the reasons that some things happen and others don't. If you know something about Him that I don't, my mind is open.

I appreciate the compliment but I don't feel my beliefs need (external) validation. Personal experience and faith are sufficient for me to maintain those beliefs.

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"God does not play dice" - Albert Einstein
"God does play dice" - Stephen Hawking

Bohica

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Quote: from Kinky R us at 6:26 am on July 22, 2009

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who IS your God anyway?

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the same as yours, allegedly, just with a different personality. He's really crazy like that, having DIDs.

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I "have" more then just one single God or Goddess
as I am pagan I except the existence of multiple Deities

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You're not obligated, but you did "offer", lol. Still, those aren't proof, simply observation and opinion.  

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No different from the theist opinion...that might justify the title "Faith Based."

Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:32 am on July 23, 2009

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I have no need to test God and I don't believe He is 'absent'.

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Is your 'belief' relevant?  Have you seen him?  What do you base that 'belief' on?

Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:32 am on July 23, 2009

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But I don't believewe can 'read' His mind... and we don't have enough information to know the reasons that some things happen and others don't.  

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And yet you have enough information to judge his actions moral...to judge he had a son named Jesus.  In what way then are you or anyone else qualified to speak about this God?

Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:32 am on July 23, 2009

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If you know something about Him that I don't, my mind is open.

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I will only resort to using the Bible itself to tell you the things it says about him -

God wanted to test Abraham's faith so he told him to sacrifice his son. Genesis 22:1-18

God allows Jephthah to slaughter his innocent daughter because Jephthah made a stupid promise when he asked God for victory over the Ammonites. Judges 11:29-40

God commands those who steal to be burned alive.
Joshua 7:15

God commands that non-believers be destroyed by fire.  Deuteronomy 13:13-19

Care for more?  There is plenty for us to judge God by if you hold that the Bible is your epistemology for God.

Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:32 am on July 23, 2009

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I appreciate the compliment but I don't feel my beliefs need (external) validation. Personal experience and faith are sufficient for me to maintain those beliefs.

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You are right, you don't need any exterior validation for your individual beliefs...and I cannot imagine you ever doing anyone harm, intentionally or not, over said beliefs.  How does it make you feel to learn that fellow 'believers' who pushed 'Anstinence Only' in this country caused a huge increase in STD's and teen pregnancy?

Post edited at 12:17 pm on July 23, 2009 by LogicandReason

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www.thehereticandthepreacher.com

Therefore, God has not been proven not to exist, which stuffs up the argument.

As for the above post, let us first look at your Bible passages.

Different culture wrote the OT, which is where your quotes come from. It is possible that people misinterpreted God (Which is what most Christians believe) and punished them wrongly, using God to justify it. When Jesus came, he told us that God wants us to forgive, not to punish.

And for your last paragraph, your missing the fact that if people were abstinent, then there would not be a rise in stds. If people actually follow it, stds would have all but ended by now.

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Rule 16
I'm so sick of atheists trying to convert me to science.

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All Logic in Reason is saying is "Because of x, God either does not exist, or y"

Therefore, God has not been proven not to exist, which stuffs up the argument.  

As for the above post, let us first look at your Bible passages.

Different culture wrote the OT, which is where your quotes come from. It is possible that people misinterpreted God (Which is what most Christians believe) and punished them wrongly, using God to justify it. When Jesus came, he told us that God wants us to forgive, not to punish.

And for your last paragraph, your missing the fact that if people were abstinent, then there would not be a rise in stds. If people actually follow it, stds would have all but ended by now.

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But they are not 'Abstinent'...we have sex.  Reality!

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www.thehereticandthepreacher.com

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Quote: from BleedingSteelWings at 8:00 pm on July 22, 2009

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Quote: from Kinky R us at 6:26 am on July 22, 2009

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who IS your God anyway?

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 the same as yours, allegedly, just with a different personality. He's really crazy like that, having DIDs.

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I "have" more then just one single God or Goddess
as I am pagan I except the existence of multiple Deities

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:32 am on July 23, 2009

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You're not obligated, but you did "offer", lol. Still, those aren't proof, simply observation and opinion.

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No different from the theist opinion...that might justify the title "Faith Based."

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:32 am on July 23, 2009

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I have no need to test God and I don't believe He is 'absent'.

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Is your 'belief' relevant? Have you seen him? What do you base that 'belief' on?

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:32 am on July 23, 2009

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But I don't believewe can 'read' His mind... and we don't have enough information to know the reasons that some things happen and others don't.

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And yet you have enough information to judge his actions moral...to judge he had a son named Jesus. In what way then are you or anyone else qualified to speak about this God?

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:32 am on July 23, 2009

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If you know something about Him that I don't, my mind is open.

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I will only resort to using the Bible itself to tell you the things it says about him -  

God wanted to test Abraham's faith so he told him to sacrifice his son. Genesis 22:1-18

God allows Jephthah to slaughter his innocent daughter because Jephthah made a stupid promise when he asked God for victory over the Ammonites. Judges 11:29-40  

God commands those who steal to be burned alive.
Joshua 7:15  

God commands that non-believers be destroyed by fire. Deuteronomy 13:13-19  

Care for more? There is plenty for us to judge God by if you hold that the Bible is your epistemology for God.

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Quote: from Forever Angel at 9:32 am on July 23, 2009

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I appreciate the compliment but I don't feel my beliefs need (external) validation. Personal experience and faith are sufficient for me to maintain those beliefs.  

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You are right, you don't need any exterior validation for your individual beliefs...and I cannot imagine you ever doing anyone harm, intentionally or not, over said beliefs. How does it make you feel to learn that fellow 'believers' who pushed 'Abstinence Only' in this country caused a huge increase in STD's and teen pregnancy?

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Quote: from Kinky R us at 2:14 pm on July 23, 2009

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Quote: from BleedingSteelWings at 8:00 pm on July 22, 2009

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Quote: from Kinky R us at 6:26 am on July 22, 2009

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who IS your God anyway?

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  the same as yours, allegedly, just with a different personality. He's really crazy like that, having DIDs.

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 I "have" more then just one single God or Goddess  
 as I am pagan I except the existence of multiple Deities

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ah, my mistake, I saw Israel in your stats and assumed somewhere along the line of Judeo-Islam

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actually I am a noahide and my father is practicing Judaism + I study the Jewish kabbalah
but unlike most people I am aware that the ancient Hebrews we're henotheistic and certainly not monotheistic thus they worshiped only a single Deity but did not reject the idea of the existence of other such Deities and so I beleive that the early christians did as well as it after all was a Jewish/Hebrew cult
I still prefer to consider myself to be pagan and a hermetic neophyte

I admire your courage and candor. I've yet to see you make a judgmental statement on these Forums...but your coreligionist do that often and speak for you by proxy and association.

If you never judge God or his actions, then you cannot qualify any statements you make about his love, mercy or abilities to affect the universe...all are subject to his behavior. All you can honestly say is that in your opinion or according to your personal faith, God is loving, merciful and all powerful.

My personal opinion is that I can see none of that in the world we live in. The good comes from the hard work and effort of people.

Quote: from Forever Angel

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I can only offer that harsh times require harsh penalties.

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So, you are not qualified to judge God by his reported actions, which included ordering Abraham to sacrifice his only son as a test of his faith, but you are able to determine that ancient times were harsher than now and required God mete out horrific punishments. What could you possible offer to establish such a statement?

Quote: from Forever Angel

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And I don't look to the OT to find the qualities of God, I look to Jesus.

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So you cherry-pick your beliefs and never question the bad stuff that is confusing. Maybe if early Christians hadn't stolen the Jewish Epic you later Christians wouldn't have to defend a culture that is not yours. Just remember that peaceful Jesus "Came with a Sword to create friction between family members...not to create peace(Matt 10:34). Is this who you are referencing?

Quote: from Forever Angel

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It saddens me that ignorance is so prevalent when so much information is available. But I won't accept that those "believers" caused those increases.

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That's OK...because there are stacks of empiracle evidence that prove the causation between a lack of sex education, birth control and Teen pregnancy/STD's...your non-acceptance of this data does not change reality. The evangilicals are to blame. Abstinence Only is not a biological solution - it is typical hipocrasy. But if you wish to be blind to the effects of superstitious beliefs don't be frustrated as abortion continues to be a plague on our society.

Quote: from Forever Angel

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Do none of the people who contracted STD's or the teens who got pregnant have parents?

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They do...their parents are the ones who teach one thing and do another. Their parents are hipocrites who had sex as a teen but expected their children to be different. There parents are bible-thumpers who hide their heads in the sand and don't teach responsibility.

The evidence of the correlation between 'Abstinence Only' and the increase in teen pregnancy/STD's has been known for a decade...where is the outcry? Who cares about these failing parents...why don't you speak out in love and compassion for the unwanted children? What will you so as a parent?

Quote: from Forever Angel

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I'd say it was their responsibility, which it seems they abrogated, to explain "the birds and the bees" and the associated dangers.

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I agree...but statistics and data show that this is not being done. Christianity, as well as all other superstitions, has unintended consequences.

Post edited at 5:42 am on July 24, 2009 by LogicandReason

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www.thehereticandthepreacher.com

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Quote: from Forever Angel

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I'd say it was their responsibility, which it seems they abrogated, to explain "the birds and the bees" and the associated dangers.

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I agree...but statistics and data show that this is not being done.  Christianity, as well as all other superstitions, has unintended consequences.

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