smart guys intimidate because they provide lots of information and actual support for what they say. forum bullies just try to intimidate ppl with insults and go together in packs and gang up to attack others.

guess which category you and abs belong to.

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

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smart guys intimidate because they provide lots of information and actual support for what they say. forum bullies just try to intimidate ppl with insults and go together in packs and gang up to attack others.

guess which category you and abs belong to.

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Or perhaps Abs and Apotheosis do offer plenty of information and excellent analyses (even if it's more often implied than explicitly stated), but that you have a big tendency to twist everything they say the wrong way and throw in a couple red herrings and strawmen into the mix. As a result, you begin arguing a completely different and irrelevent matter and there's really nothing left to do but lol at you.

Post edited at 4:26 am on June 27, 2008 by Bud2400

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all i seen here in the last 2 pages is stupid shit like apotheis saying selfish is the best way to go and a bunch of retarded insults from abs. but yeah if you think thats some good example of being smart then go on licking their boots. no one is stopping you.

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The way they define selfishness is a little different from the way you do, Jake.

In the sense they use it in, selfish = self-interest, meaning they look after their own interests first. If we didn't look after our own interests first, we'd have no incentive to advance in status, make more money, or what have you, and thus every economic system since the dawn of man would fall apart. In a sense, one can say that our selfishness benefits everybody else to can extent (because while a CEO may make 70% of all extra profits, the other 30% gets trinkled down and split among everybody else working for you - so everybody benefits in some way).

Also remember, part of this interest may be helping others - hence charity for example. In the past, charities have been quite large and well suited to helping many people, and much more efficiently than the government has ever been able to either. As a result, people like Apotheosis and Abs will see charity as superior to government redistribution of wealth for the fact that they are not only more efficient, but people have the choice of participating in it or not. Freedom with one's money is akin to freedom with one's speech, religion, etc. At least that's how libertarians and most conservatives see it.

Post edited at 4:41 pm on June 27, 2008 by Bud2400

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The way they define selfishness is a little different from the way you do, Jake.

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as for abs all he did was just throw stupid insults.

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 In a sense, one can say that our selfishness benefits everybody else to can extent (because while a CEO may make 70% of all extra profits, the other 30% gets trinkled down and split among everybody else working for you - so everybody benefits in some way).

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like for example when the tech companies give stocks to employees, yeah that one is cool. because then the best guys who contribute the most really get more and get rewarded. If thats what you mean by self-interest then I get you.

but the stupid trickle down BS where the CEO gets 60% and then all the other workers get screwed that system is stupid.

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Also remember, part of this interest may be helping others

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i mean you really quick to support those you think agree with you but you didn't even stop to figure out what I was trying to say. and it was the same thing you said. maybe you just eat up too much of the bullcrap abs and his bullies feed you.

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

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so you believe in the trickle down BS?

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Eh, kinda, kinda not.  Leaning towards not.  I'm just explaining you the theory (it doesn't tend to work so swell in real life, especially when companies cut costs by cutting their labor's wages) and how everybody in it gets something, at least theoretically.  You can argue that they aren't getting their fair portion, but you can't say under such a system that anybody is "losing out," as they've all made some improvement from before, even it's only a marginal improvement for the poorest.

Personally, I think there's some merit to this idea, but it needs to be balanced out with other things.

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like for example when the tech companies give stocks to employees, yeah that one is cool. because then the best guys who contribute the most really get more and get rewarded. If thats what you mean by self-interest then I get you.

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You mean like when Microsoft gave its employees in the 80s stock and many years later, they wound up making millions off of it?

Don't forget, Jake, that by owning stocks, you yourself can benefit (even greatly sometimes).  Givng your employees stocks in your company is a great idea because not only does it mean you don't take money away from your company (the money has to come from somewhere, so the company takes it out of their funds and invests it right back into itself), but it also means that your employee has an interest in seeing the company succeed since they would benefit from that.

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but the stupid trickle down BS where the CEO gets 60% and then all the other workers get screwed that system is stupid.

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It really depends on how valuable the CEO is monetarily vs. how valuable the rest of the workers are.  With high turnover rates, lack of any labor union (which can be the result of both company efforts and state law), etc. it's no surprise that the common worker's wage will be devalued.

Moreover, we must remember that a CEO is only one single position which is extremely competitive and bears a lot of responsibility (much more than any single worker in the company).  Adequately fulfilling a CEO position is much more difficult than adequately fulfilling the common worker's position.  If you look at free market economics, it's no surprise that CEOs wind up getting paid a lot more money.  You complain about it all the time, but I don't see you offering any suggestions as to what would improve this, in your mind.

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sure but thats not what apoethoiss said. he said that selflessness and helping others was lame. thats why I said the world is not divided in selfish vs selfless. its more complicated than that.

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I'm glad you see it that way.  

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i mean you really quick to support those you think agree with you but you didn't even stop to figure out what I was trying to say. and it was the same thing you said. maybe you just eat up too much of the bullcrap abs and his bullies feed you.

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Nah, I read what you had to say, but I may have missed a few points here and there.  You tend to say a lot of things with all that, relevent or irrelevent (especially when you couple it with an insult right back at the person), which has a tendency to lead people away from the core of what you were trying to say.  My apologies for it.

Post edited at 2:34 pm on June 29, 2008 by Bud2400

i don't expect or ask anyone to do anything for me unless it benefits them too, and that's how i treat people as well.

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i don't understand why anyone expects my selfishness to benefit them

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When people criticize you for this, I think that they think you should go out of your way to help others no matter what.  They don't care whether or not you acknowledge that you're selfish, they only care whether or not your life has any benefit to others or the "greater good."  Otherwise, they'll think of you as a waste of space (although I'd mention that even others' selfishness and care of only themself can be beneficial to others in different ways).

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i don't expect or ask anyone to do anything for me unless it benefits them too, and that's how i treat people as well.

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Agreed.

Post edited at 5:54 pm on June 29, 2008 by Apotheosis

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But commiefags believe that all the fruits of your labor are really owned by the community, thus it is their right to take all your fruits while they sit on their asses...

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big oil and big farms sit on thier fat ass and get all kind of money from the tacpayers and then screw the taxpayers once over more at the pump and at the grocery store

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Government directly subsidizes oil consumption through preferential treatment in tax codes. A multitude of federal corporate income tax credits and deductions results in an effective income tax rate of 11% for the oil industry, compared to the non-oil industry average of 18%. If the oil industry paid the industrywide average tax rate (including oil) of 17%, they would have paid an additional $2.0 billion in 1991.

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http://www.ucsusa.org/clean_vehicles/fuel_economy/subsidizing-big-oil.html

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It's something environmental activists and almost everyone in DC can attest to: the farm bill is a boondoggle. A pork-laden behemoth that is sold to the public as family farmers' only hope for survival in a modernizing world, the bill is written by lawmakers from agricultural states to protect the interests of large, cash-flush agricultural operators who spread around hundreds of millions in lobbying funds and donations. The end result? A bill that doesn't do enough for the environment, subsidizes all the crops needed to prolong America's obesity epidemic, and takes money out of the pockets of third-world farmers.

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http://www.motherjones.com/washington_dispatch/2008/05/farm-bill-ken-cook.html

funny i never hear the conserfags cry out when the taxpayer pocket is raided to finance big oil and big farm owners.

fatfags always protect their own it looks like

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP

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especially when companies cut costs by cutting their labor's wages) and how everybody in it gets something, at least theoretically.

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 Don't forget, Jake, that by owning stocks, you yourself can benefit (even greatly sometimes).

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 You complain about it all the time, but I don't see you offering any suggestions as to what would improve this, in your mind.

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also giving some fair health benefit and a good retirement plan sounds like a good thing.  

i mean fuck a lot of employees even at the low level contribute a shitload to the profit of many companies. but because of retarded managers and a shitty system nobody notices and they get screwed.  
 
some companies get it right with their employees and when they do guess what they end up doing pretty good (like Microsoft) but usually the CEO and the top brass just get greedy for themselves and screw everyone so they can live large on the back of the real workers. too many companies are like that and thats what I see.    

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My apologies for it.

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Post edited at 10:32 pm on June 29, 2008 by jakelong

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"Everyone helpin' each other whenever they can we makin' it happen, from nothin' to somethin'
That's how we be survivin'" - BEP